“The End of Men” – Are Men Oppressed?
June 21, 2010
by Karen
|The opinions expressed herein are those of the author, and not necessarily those of The New Agenda.
In Hanna Rosin’s new article in this month’s Atlantic , “The End of Men,” she poses the question along with the assertion:
What if modern, postindustrial society is simply better suited to women? A report on the unprecedented role reversal now under way— and its vast cultural consequences
She notes that women are now leading men in education, training and employment numbers. More women than men earn college degrees, fewer are unemployed, and they outnumber men in eight of the 10 fastest growing fields. In her concluding paragraph, Rosin makes the claim that men are suffering because of women’s aim for equality and their skill in adapting to a service-oriented economy. She seems to be saying that men are becoming oppressed in a society full of dominatrix and blaming a lot of what is happening to men on inherent biology, on post industrialization, and possibly even on feminism itself. This is just how men are, she seems to be saying, when confronted by failures and by women’s educational and economic gains.
They look like they’ve been tranquilized, like they can barely hold themselves up against the breeze. Their lips do not move, but a voice-over explains their predicament—how they’ve been beaten silent by the demands of tedious employers and enviro-fascists and women. Especially women. “I will put the seat down, I will separate the recycling, I will carry your lip balm.” This last one—lip balm—is expressed with the mildest spit of emotion, the only hint of the suppressed rage against the dominatrix.
It is quite possible that some men believe they are or will be oppressed by women. However, there is a huge difference between feeling oppressed and being oppressed. In today’s society, no one seems to realize a difference exists. People assume you automatically are what you feel. But this is the antithesis of reality.
The problem with males in the United States is neither the fault of men nor women. It is not even the fault of post-industrialization. The problem with males – and females — is our culture. It is culture that has been the dominant factor in men’s behavior and in whether or not they value an education. There is no adequate biologically-based explanation as to why men cannot adapt to a post-industrial lifestyle.
The history of civilization has been full of eras in which men valued education and intelligence. Classical Greece and the European Enlightenment are two examples. Those two eras prove that men can be highly intelligent. As men prided themselves on their intellect, women in the 1800 and 1900s spoke up to say they were as equally intelligent as men. Men disagreed, and this disagreement led to the feminist movement.
History has also proven that men in some cultures can shy away from developing their intellect and behave in ways that other cultures consider “effeminate.” Men in the Imperial family of the Heian era in Japan dedicated themselves to boredom, poetry contests, and parties. The Heian era was very much a patriarchy that rendered women dependent upon men. The Heian lifestyle was frivolous and devoid of intellect. Then, the samurai came to power and removed their boredom.
The various dark ages and warring states eras are also proof that culture is the controlling factor in male behavior. Male biology and female biology have remained unchanged for tens of thousands of years. It is culture that changes.
So what is in our culture that is prompting more women to strive for higher education and discouraging men? I think women are continuing to fulfill the old dream of the early feminists, so they are pursuing as much education as they can. While women continue to benefit from the remaining cultural elements of empowerment, our culture has become opposed to the intelligent man. Men who pursue any sort of education are derided as nerds. Nerds are portrayed as outcasts, socially inept, clumsy, and lacking in genuine appeal. Despite their intelligence or perhaps because of their intelligence, they are unable to function in society. Imagine Steve Urkel. Who actually wants him as a role model, hmmm? The Big Bang Theory is a popular sitcom that epitomizes our culture’s negative stereotype toward nerds.
Hanna Rosin actually provides an example of how culture has been derailing men’s educational success by describing a man who “had to hide his books from his friends, who would tease him when he studied. Then came the excuses [about not studying]. ‘It’s spring, gotta play ball.’ ‘It’s winter, too cold.’ He didn’t make it.”
Instead of praising intelligence, we glorify violence in men. Action-adventure is one thing, but wanton destruction should never be valued over intellect. Movies have been increasing the intensity of their violence for years. Everywhere, there is violence, violence, and more violence. So far, only one series, Flash Forward, has portrayed intelligent men properly in the characters of Lloyd Simcoe and Simon Campos. We women should wish intellectuals were more like Lloyd than Simon, but nonetheless both Lloyd Simcoe and Simon Campos have broken the anti-nerd stereotype. The greatest men in civilization’s history have been nerds.
Ultimately, the glorifying of violence and the deriding of intelligence in males has resulted in more men declining to pursue higher education. This is dangerous for both genders. It is dangerous for women because it increases domestic violence, rape, and misogyny. Hateful emotions are violent emotions, after all. Furthermore, to blame women’s empowerment for moving men to favor violence over intellect only serves to polarize the two genders and destroys the concept of equality. It seems Rosin wants women to question the impact of their own individual power while letting men feel victimized. Rather than faulting anyone, let us take a look at culture and see how we can improve it for both genders.
Karen,
Perhaps, what we are witnessing with men’s new found feelings of oppression is their own realization that they have been fooling themselves by defining themselves under false pretenses. Their belief that, by just being born male instead of female, they are automatically superior and therefore, entitled to the best life has to offer, without ever having to earn it. The very process necessary in order for us to develop character, integrity, strength, purpose, resolve, resiliancy and confidence in who we are, so that we can face adversity and overcome it. It stands to reason that by keeping women uneducated, they were able to totally control women’s lives, which in turn, forced women to be totally at their mercy in being able to survive. Now that women are being educated in greater numbers, men are finding out that they were never superior and that having power for power’s sake does not sustain one in the real world. Eventually, you become the victime of your own illusions.
Let’s not take out of the equation that women didn’t define men. Men defined men. And then they defined what women should be in order to support and maintain this definition, which we are now witnessing was totally unsustainable over time. Since men have almost all power over every aspect of society, they’ve inadvertently created a culture in which the “illusion” they built around themselves is finally crumbling under the weight of reality. The irony of this new pheonomenon is that men now find themselves defenseless in the very world they created.
On the other hand, women are thriving only because they have never been entitled to any opportunity and achievement in life. They’ve always had to work for it and EARN it, under the most difficult and unfair conditions, while being told every step of the way that they aren’t capable and should stay home and be good mothers and wives.
When Hanna Rosin talks about the “dominatrix”, again, I see it as a symptom of what was going to happen as a result of men feeling they had to be superior in all things. But this is too simplistic and doesn’t address the core where the problem exists with men and why they are failing. What we are witnessing is women are no longer focusing entirely on the man’s achievements and successes and supporting him so that he can achieve them, women are now focusing on their own lives and living up to their full potential.
Men are finding out that the old saying “behind every great man is a woman” (while viewed as some kind magnanimous nod by men in showing some appreciation for the women in their lives), for the first time that without women, they are having a hard time coping with the realities of life and rising above them on their own.
In the end, should women ever gain even equal power with men, I seriously doubt that we will oppress men like they have us because we don’t need to do so in order to succeed. Nor do we need to gloat about our successes in the face of their difficulities. We are bigger than that and men should take heed that women aren’t really into oppression but rather, consensus. Sadly, a concept men have the most difficult time with.
Nonetheless, I do hope that men will finally come to realize that women are not the enemy and that we need each other to take on the world’s problems, because it’s going to take both genders to fix them. It is more than apparent that men, alone, cannot. That we will see men redefine themselves and no longer feel a need to be superior to woman, but being willing to accept us as equals. Together, women and men can change the world for the better and, as a result, men and women will live happier healthier lives, where violence was just an unfortunate and convenient tool men used to avoid facing this truth.
I sincerely hope men give women a chance. Considering the shape the world is in now, what have they got to lose?
“They look like they’ve been tranquilized, like they can barely hold themselves up against the breeze.”
That is because men have been coddled by society and women. It is also because they spend too much time alone with their pornography, contemplating women who present no challenge and require zero interaction and intimacy. How many men do you all know who are happy with their porn and don’t have any real need for a real relationship? There are entirely too many men whose most memorable sexual experience happened alone in front of a computer screen and they are good with that. And that is a major difference between men and women, I don’t know any women who have happily chosen a non intimate sexual relationship with their computer over Real life. I know when something is wrong in the world it is common to pick a woman and blame it all on her but perhaps it is time to look at the behaviors of men and how they contribute to their own unhappiness and inability to thrive.
Bes,
You said: “I know when something is wrong in the world it is common to pick a woman and blame it all on her but perhaps it is time to look at the behaviors of men and how they contribute to their own unhappiness and inability to thrive.”
Therein lies the problem. If men AND women continue to blame men for their problems, men will never address them and nothing will change.
Time for men to take responsibility for the world they created and face the music. Instead of giving them a convenient out by finding fault with women, we need to show some tough love and help them see that we are all responsible for the lives we live and we cannot blame others when we fail.
Sorry, I meant to say “if men and women continue to blame WOMEN for their problems…”
“They look like they’ve been tranquilized, like they can barely hold themselves up against the breeze.”
That really cracked me up! Give me a bloody break! Holding somebody’s lip gloss and putting the toilet seat down has completely knocked the wind out of these guys?? They are now in the throes of trauma, walking around in a daze?
When women are not required to have five degrees just to debate a male drop out, former alcoholic, on TV, we’ll talk about equality. This fact cuts across the liberal/conservative divide as if it didn’t even exist. Look at our female pundits, they all have advanced degrees, while those viewed as icons of mansplaining are the Rush Limbaughs and Glenn Becks of the world. Not that there’s anything wrong with not having an education, but just give me a female drop out who struggled with drugs and alcohol and set her up as the regurgitator of Absolute Truth on TV, and than I’ll consider that the playing field has leveled out.
yttik,
You captured the absurdity of Hanna Rosin’s analysis of the state of men today! Frankly, this only shows me that women need to take charge until the men can get their equalibrium back from so much being expected of them!
When you look at the game of chess, you see that the “Queen” is the most powerful attacking piece on the chessboard. However, to win the game of chess, you have to checkmate the King. There are some exquisite lessons to be learned from understanding that concept of chess.
The next generation of “empowered women” are going to wake up and realize that all that is happening is that they are being given the slave labor duties of society. After men and women get through this generation of excessive feminism that attacks men from all angles, they are going to re-establish balance, and once again recognize that the best relationships on Earth are those that are loving, kind, and mutually respectful partnerships between men and women.
If they’re that fragile, they’re not men. They’re little boys. Patriarchy makes men into babies, in need of constant coddling and fussing.
Problem is, when most of them hear this and get offended, their reaction is all too often along the lines of, “So I’m not a man, you bitch! I’ll show you!” and then the fists get clenched. Being a man to them doesn’t mean doing your own laundry and cooking for yourself like a functional adult. It means needing to get your ass wiped like an infant and violence when the ass-wiping gets a little too self-evidently pathetic.
Show me a male human who can vacuum his own carpets without feeling like he’s doing anything particularly special, and who can confront the produce and meat sections of the supermarket without shuffling form one foot to the other and then wandering off to buy a TV dinner because he can’t actually feed himself, and I’ll show you a man.
BTW, I wonder how many men will read my comment and confuse the following two things:
“Grow up and learn how to feed and clean up after yourself so you don’t burden a wife or girlfriend with having to do all that crap for both of you after your mother stopped. Babies can’t feed themselves. Adults can.”
“I hate men and want them all to die.”
They seriously do think that not wiping their butts is an act of oppression. “I’m not here to wipe your ass” and “I want to erase you from the face of the Earth” are the same to them. That’s how twisted this all is.
Rick,
I beg to differ. Men have declared war against women in every direction and have oppressed us since the beginning of time for the most part.
When women are “sugar and spice and everything nice”, men are still not happy. No matter what women do, it’s going to be viewed as the reason men are the way they are.
If we wait for men to start taking responsibility for their own actions and respecting women as equals, the world will have self-destructed by then. Clearly, men are having a difficult time facing the truth that they are not omnipotent and that women are no longer willing to be their servants and property. That’s what’s bugging the boyz. They feel their entitlement slipping away and realize that with more and more women getting educated and passing them by in the qualifications department, they will actually have to compete instead of having everything given to them by a patriarchy who is totally to blame for men’s problems. Not women.
That’s funny Janis, because it’s so darn true. To some men, a woman not fixing them lunch is considered abuse. It’s funny but tragic at the same time.
Having your privilege thwarted is not the same thing as a woman trying to starve you to death. There is always the option of getting up and fixing your own damn lunch.
It really is all very twisted.
Kathleen,
When you consider that 80% of all child abuse is committed by women, that the Abu Ghraib Prison(Iraq)torture scandal happened when a female American officer was overseeing the prison at the time, and that the greatest threat that female inmates now have is coming from lesbian guards who abuse and strip search vulnerable female inmates for “arousal” and “payback”, you recognize that there is enough finger pointing to go around for both sexes.
Kathleen, yes, too many men and women are the type of low-lifes that you describe. Again, those Draconian attitudes have no sex base. All decent and intelligent human beings want equal partnerships that are based on love, friendship, mutual respect, and spiritual harmony.
As the father of a daughter, I feel the “empowerment of women” has some wonderful merit. However, it also is forcing many women into lives of modern slavery. They just don’t consciously recognize that yet.
The greatest thing all parents can do is be kind to their children. Those children will then grow up to pass on that love and kindness to the next generation. That will benefit everyone.
I do agree with one element of what Hanna wrote.
This is a huge generalization, but I worry about our sons. I can see myself being the mom helping her son get organized to find employment after college – would not even consider that notion with my daughter. The moms in my community often discuss how hard it is to even get our sons out the door in the morning to go to school.
I hear you Amy I also have a son. Here is one problem I have had in motivating him to get a job using his brain. He is 6’4″ tall and weighs 190 lbs. He has been able to get $20 or more an hour for manual labor since he was 17. All he has to do is wait until he runs out of money, show up in the hiring line and he ALWAYS gets picked. He likes the way his body looks after a summer of hard work and so do the women. I advised him to take an office based internship for no pay and his response is “are you kidding me Mom?” “Why should I work for no money in clothes I don’t like indoors when I can be out side making $20./hr or more?” Of course some day he will be 35 and he won’t be able to work like that but try telling that to a 23 year old male.
I haven’t had a similar problem with my daughter because no one will pay her that much, she works 4 hours a day, no more, for $10. and hour as a lifeguard and children’s swim lesson teacher. The children drive her nuts and she has to maintain yearly certifications in first aid, life saving, CPR and defibrillation on her own time without being paid. She studies harder because she wants a better job and that is the only way she will ever get it. She is already hoping for an engineering internship next year.
And if I am not trying to organize my son then there are plenty of women ready to do it. He brought home the new girlfriend recently and after his college graduation ceremony. She took him out shopping and selected a nice work wardrobe for him, completely coordinated, she directed the alterations, picked it up and hung it in his closet in an organized manner. He then went out on a celebration cruise with about 200 people with “the guys” left her home where she baked him a rhubarb and strawberry pie, then she picked him up at 2:30am because she didn’t want him to get a DUI for trying to drive. His sister and I were sitting there going WTF???? What is this girl thinking?! The next day he was getting texts from some girl he met the night before and can’t remember!
So I agree that the current situation is wrong, but some if not many women are apparently happy to contribute to the situation as it exists.
And when your daughter ends up as a more permanent, stable success than your son, he’ll bitch about how she had everything handed to her and didn’t have to work for anything while he Slaved Away …
Janis,
You are making a global statement not dissimilar to what Hanna writes in her piece. According to that logic, we may as well sit back and do nothing because women will just rise to the top and men continue to sink.
I do not agree with her piece overall – although the piece is an important discussion point, I also think she selectively picks data to suit what she wrote. I also think this us vs. them mentality is detrimental to women’s way forward.
Rich,
I think a woman, just like a man, should decide how she wants to live her life. Men should not define a woman’s role, as you would never allow women to define your’s. After all, the majority of women are now working outside the home because one paycheck isn’t enough, but I don’t see you commenting on how the men have not lived up to their responsibility of being what they consider themselves as the “breadwinner”.
Also, what happened at Abu Grab is hardly a good example of abuse in society by women. You should take more time to research what happened before drawing conclusions that women were “80%” responsible for the abuse. An attorney for one of the soldiers convicted of abuse had this to say:
“Gary Myers, a lawyer for one of the dozen-odd enlisted men and women charged as a result of the Abu Ghraib scandal, said in 2004 that the military was turning low-level soldiers into scapegoats for “a monumental failure of leadership.” The real story, he said, was not the enlisted, but “the manner in which the intelligence community forced them into this position” by demanding that they “soften up” suspects for interrogation. Well-documented subsequent disclosures proved Myers right.”
Link to entire article: http://middleeast.about.com/od.....bility.htm
Here’s a subject that you guys never want to talk about:
“Female soldiers at Abu Ghraib died for fear of rape, military covers it up”
http://counterrecruiter.wordpr.....ers-it-up/
It’s those who have the most power who carry the greatest guilt in the overwhelming violence being perpetrated on those who have no power. Women have very little power, so, you do the math.
Amy,
You know I love your site and have the utmost respect for all you do to give voice to women, but I don’t consider the responses made here today as an “us vs. them” mentality. I think it’s more akin to “not blaming the woman for the men’s inability to deal with the very system they set up for themselves.”
If women had equal power with men, I would agree with you. The world is falling down around us and I believe the men are responding to their own handiwork and as usual, rather than face the fact that maybe they need to change the way they think about themselves AND women, they’d rather fall back on the old reliable “blame the woman.”
This is a conditioned response that even women don’t recognize in themselves. If we want to break the cycle of this kind of thinking, we have to call it out and stop placating the problem because women don’t won’t to offend the very fragile male ego. The men don’t seem to have the same problem when it comes to poining out our weaknesses!
Kathleen,
On the Abu Ghraib situation, I have no argument with you what-so-ever about who was ultimately responsible for the “approval” of the torture at that Iraq prison. The approval for that treatment and torture of the Iraqi insurgents was handed down by the Bush White House and their affiliates. While most of those pictures were censored before any pictures were shown on the mass media TV networks, the real stuff was exposed on the internet. I was “fortunate” enough to be doing my research on-line and was able to see the censored material. The US female officer who was “given” the job of overseeing the Abu Ghraib torture plan may have been given that assignment as “cover”. We’ll never quite know about that. The one thing that does stand out in those censored pictures is the female US soldiers being able to really abuse the male insurgents…and yes, Iraqi females were sexually abused there also.
The 80% child abuse being committed by women statistic comes from very reliable statistical evidence and research. Part of it may be that women tended to be at home with the children more.
I think that to sum it up, it comes down to, ultimately, as long as they respect their neighbors and contacts space, what people do with their own lives should be their own personal choice. Other than biological senses that determine the attractiveness of one person to another, gender based decision making and finger pointing tends to be over-rated and over-used.
Rosin brings up an interesting observation. I agree with her observation -but- I must point out that men were never suited for life better than women. Men had to oppress women in order to appear as if they had anything to offer. Most history is celebrated as a series of conquests and wars that really only rearranged things. They’ve had to put in a lot of work to erase the names of the women responsible for nearly every aspect of humanity: math, astronomy, geometry, physics, astrolabes, poetry, writing, novels, printing, weaving, fire/cooking, electricty, building and ratio, etc. Men’s warring, in fact, should not be celebrated. It has devastated knowledge and human growth, burned libraries, and erased women. Honestly it’s almost impossible to have an intellectual discussion with a male. Compared to women, men don’t have ideas, or good ones, and cannot formulate them as well as women. Because of men most discussions are arguments. They turn everything to a fight. But when it comes to making an intellectual discussion or argument, men can discuss on an even level with men, but men cannot argue with women. Men just sound stupid where you can see and hear women talk. They just can’t be as human as women are, so that may be a reason why they shut women up, I don’t know. It’s very rare that a man sounds intelligent or makes a coherent statement, but generally speaking most women sound intelligent. Every time I hear a man say something I just have to cringe and when men try to do science its a complete failure.
The problem with men is that violence is no longer sanctified. Yes there is a lot of it in the media but men are finding a harder time gaining privilege by proxy of some men being violent and because laws do not shut women up.
I agree an Us vs Them mentality is not going to work. Anyway I like men but they do think differently than women. I ask my son why he thinks his girlfriend baked him a pie while he was out when he made a point of not taking her along and why she picked him a wardrobe and arranged it. According to him she felt like baking his favorite pie and she thinks of him as a life sized Ken doll and likes to deal with wardrobes. So men usually don’t do things for ulterior motives (other than sex)and they figure that women must also enjoy doing the chores they do or else they wouldn’t do them. She also wrote his resume and cover letter! Of course my opinion is she wants to be his wife and make a home with him and she wants him to get a professional job and look professional which his degree now qualifies him to do. I also agree that my daughter will have more career success because she has had to work harder for her goals. I am trying to make him step up and handle life on his own like his 4 years younger sister does but he just delegates his life chores to other women who seem happy to do it for no immediate reward (and most likely no reward ever but they haven’t figured that out yet).
The current state of our culture is a mess but women are contributing to the mess. Articulately pointing out to men what is wrong with the society they have built and we have tolerated and expecting them to fix it to our specifications is wrong. Women need to step up and build a better way themselves. Sure some men will like our way and join us. That is great, I love men. But the current system is untweakable.
I’m working outside the home because I WANT TO. I’m good at it, and I like having money and not fucking someone to get it. You know what that is? Prostitution. I’m not interested in that career.
I’m good at my job, I love to do it, and if that makes a man feel worried, angry, insecure, or picked on, then tough shit. If he’s such an unappealing loser that he can’t get a wife unless her alternative is economic destitution, then he’d better revamp himself to make even a self-sufficient, independent woman want him around.
And if you want to keep women powerless and poor (whoops, sorry — enshrine us chivalrously as the angel of the hearth and pat us on the head for it) so one of us will “love” you, that will only make things worse — because deep in your heart, you’ll know that she doesn’t really love you at all, she’s just trying not to starve because she has no choice. And you’ll hate HER for that nagging conscience.
A REAL MAN wants a REAL WOMAN — a human being who he knows chose him because she liked him and wanted him around, not because she either cracked her thighs for him or else starved. If you don’t know how to do that, then I don’t even pity you. I just hope you steer clear of women and don’t pick up a gun someday to act out your frustration at not getting any.
Bes really makes a good point about sons. You do your best to raise a son that believes in equality, but the reality is that he still gets to enjoy male privilege. The entire culture bends over backwards to make him succeed and feel good about himself. In a way it is crippling to always have everything handed to you, to have everyone around you cater to you. It’s not a position of strength and self reliance. Of course, try telling that to a 17 yr old boy who has reaped the benefits of his gender.
Amy, the “Us versus Them” scenario doesn’t come from women. Women aren’t operating on that level. Many of us are wives, daughters, mothers of sons, and yet they never cease to whine about how much we hate men. Obviously if you’ve sacrificed your entire life nurturing men, you don’t hate them! The problem is men belong to a very privileged class and the slightest attempt by anyone to not view them as the center of the universe results in accusations of “US versus Them” or man hating. That doesn’t make it true.
Bes,
My best friend has a son and although a feminist, I find that she often lets him get away with things she wouldn’t let another man get away with, with regard to exploiting his privilege and expecting women to want to wait on him, etc. The young men learn who take the position that the woman “wanted to do it for him, or she wouldn’t do it”, is a convenient end run around recognizing that he would not spend time with her if she didn’t.
On the other hand, her letting him get away with this kind of behavior is a red flag that she thinks she can “change him” to be the kind of man she is hoping for. She’s in for some heartache, because you can’t change another person, you can only change yourself. I suspect she’s been conditioned to believe that if she would just do all these things for him, he will recognize her sacrifice and decide to be the man she wants him to be. He learns that women’s purpose is to nurture the man, but never thinks that he should return the favor and nurture her too. She also doesn’t seem to understand that she first must respect herself before she can be respected by someone she cares about. This is the endless circle that young men and women get caught up in and at the end of the day, they end of hurting each other and creating the seed of indifference that keeps men and women at odds with each other because it’s always about one side (usually the woman) make the sacrifices in order to get the man to want her.
It’s a lose-lose situation.
Rich,
You said: “gender based decision making and finger pointing tends to be over-rated and over-used.”
As a man, that’s easy for you to say because you aren’t on the short end of the stick when it comes to opportunity and not having to deal with discrimination that tilts the playing field against you for just being a man on a daily basis and in every way.
It would be nice if men would recognize, like they did when it comes to the African-American experience in society, that they also don’t know what it’s like to be a woman in a society almost totally run by white men, set up to favor them over everyone else, with no concern that they are discriminating against another human being just because of the gender, not their “qualifications” .
One example that may help you understand the frustration that comes from these injustices is how white men react when affirmative action favors a black man getting a job they feel they are more qualified for and that he is only getting it because he’s an AA. I recall their anger and outrage of being “discriminated” against on this much smaller scale, when you look at the big picture. Now multiply that a thousand times over and you might have some idea how it feels to be a woman in a patriarchial society that defines and restricts, and controls you at every turn and calls you every name in the book when you try to confront them for doing this. We are human too and our lives are just as important to us, as your’s is to you and just as valuable.
You ever think that the reason the world is imploding in every direction right now because it’s missing the other half of the human race’s involvement on a level playing field working together in mutual respect? What I can’t figure out is what is so frightening about that concept to men, in general?
You guys say women are hard to understand, but you are too!
“Rich,
You said: “gender based decision making and finger pointing tends to be over-rated and over-used.”
As a man, that’s easy for you to say because you aren’t on the short end of the stick when it comes to opportunity and not having to deal with discrimination that tilts the playing field against you for just being a man on a daily basis and in every way.”
Not only that, but if men think it’s over-rated and over-used, then why the hell are they constantly, constantly, constantly doing it? Don’t come here and tell US how cheap and overdone it is. Go to the Vienna Phil, go to Harvard, go to the fucking US government that’s still 16% women, go to the nearest person who calls Sarah Palin a stupid cunt, go to a million other places where men pull this shit on women ALL THE TIME and tell THEM how overdone and half-baked it is.
I’m not even operating on “us versus them,” and I’m fully aware that I’m sort of the loud, mouthy bitch around here. I’m simply stating out loud that they are operating on that level, and not excusing it, not staying in denial about it, and not forgiving them for it. That is ALL I’m doing. I’m calling them on their shit. I’m not creating the shit, I’m just pointing at it lying there on the carpet stinking and soaking in. We’re all doing that here really, I’m just more likely to do it with the inclusion of a few fucks and goddamns.
Even I’m not engaging in finger-pointing even a tiny little bit. I’m just refusing to pretend that I don’t notice that men do it. I’m not forgiving them with gentle endless motherly tenderness and patience.
They treat us like shit, and when we call them on it, WE’RE blamed for being divisive. When I call WOMEN on letting them get away with it out of fear of never finding a huzzbin, I’m also called divisive.
Well the thing I am saying is, it is not other men who are volunteering to take over my sons life organizing responsibilities for him. It is a seemingly endless stream of young, educated women who are just handing him this so called male privilege and requiring nothing in return. I don’t get it. Clearly they see him as a do it yourself husband kit but I don’t see why 20ish educated women are so invested in getting a husband who has to be continually propped up, why don’t they expend their energy on their own career then they won’t need a man to provide for them. He is far away from being capable of acting as a man in our society although he is moving steadily in that direction. And that is another thing I don’t get. What is with this extended adolescence in our culture. Life expectancy was 45 in 1900. A person who acted like an adolescent until they were 30 would not live to raise their children a hundred years ago.
Another thing is, I do not see it as abusive for men to accept random nurturing from women who offer it but don’t have the common sense to demand clearly that their needs be met in return. I have told my son he has to be clear and direct about what sort of relationship he is open to, if women do not listen or think they can connive him into something else that is their problem. But something is really off in our culture when young educated women are that desperate for a man. Of course I understand sexual motivation to have men around but it isn’t like men are reluctant sex partners. You don’t have to tie your life up with one in order to have a sex partner.
No one here is talking about the subject of my article. Neither men nor women are to blame for anything wrong in our society. Culture is to blame. I do not appreciate you hijacking this post with your rants.
I wrote this article not to blame men, but to blame culture. Men are not responsible for creating this society. They were born into it, just like we are. And a lot of men are equally capable of overcoming culture, just like we are. The most feminist series I ever watched was created by a man. In the 1800s and 1900s, there was a men’s organization dedicated to woman’s suffrage while there was an all-women anti-suffrage organization; so men are capable of overcoming cultural lies and women are capable of believing cultural lies.
We need men because the two genders are necessary for society to function. I want to eliminate sexism so that we can co-exist peacefully. Again, men are not to blame. Culture is to blame.
I had also written “there is a huge difference between feeling oppressed and being oppressed. In today’s society, no one seems to realize a difference exists. People assume you automatically are what you feel. But this is the antithesis of reality.”
So it is ironic that instead of reading my article, you begin ranting about women are so oppressed. I joined TNA to fight sexism and to change our culture for the better. I know fully well that sexism exists and is hurting women in our country. However, where is the oppression?
If women were oppressed in this country, there would not be a TNA. I am certain many of you ranters have jobs, an education, etc., so how can you consider yourselves oppressed?
This was one of the best discussions I have ever read on the TNA blog, and I am glad this is all out on the table. If I can add anything at all, it is that I believe strongly that women are oppressed and that having a job (a good one, bad one or something in between) does not erase that oppression. It goes much deeper than employment. I do feel strongly that as women, we are complicit in this — in how we insist upon taking care of men in ways we would not do with women. We take care of our sons, our husbands, etc. The commenter who painted that picture of a man shuffling from one foot to the next at the meat section of the supermarket was priceless. I take my husband clothes shopping because he can’t figure out how to buy anything but another tee-shirt. I knew he wouldn’t do it, unless I helped. Now, who’s stupid here? I participate in the ass wiping, and until I’m willing to have him look like crap when we go out somewhere then I’m stuck in this self-perpetuating bind. What does he get besides the clothes? A pissed off wife, so there we go…the churn continues.
Karen,
I’m sorry you feel that your article was not responded to, but with all due respect, I have to disagree with you there. For starters, you can’t control how the written word will “read” to any individual. Everyone reacts differently to a “one-way conversation” that an article presents. The diverse responss simply take a life of their own because people always respond to what they read from their own experiences and viewpoints.
Secondly, again, I can’t agree that culture is just there on its own. Culture is a reflection of people and either evolves or stays stagnant, based on the “vision” of the people which is different in every generation.
Men had a big hand in building the culture we live in today. They are the ones who dominate any group, village, town, city and who write the laws that govern these various communities and are the one’s who decide which one’s to enforce and which one to turn a blind eye to. It is their power over the group that gives them the ability to develop the kind of culture in which we live.
For example, Elvis created a totally different culture of music. It didn’t happen on its own. He impacted it with his personality and created something totally new, based on the strengh of his personality and talent. Same thing with the Beatles, and both Elvis and the Beatles were totally different than “hip-hop”, which has, again, radically changed our culture.
Culture is created by those in power who have the most influence and are recognized and written about and emulated by the people in that culture. The woman’s influence on culture has been less than it could have been because the men in power chose not to acknowledge their viewpoints, contributions, achievements, their unique differences from men, either by design or simply from a bias borne out of disrespect for a woman’s point-of-view and/or women, in general, in shaping how we live.
I think this was a very enlightening discussion, which opened up some important insights about how women feel about their place in our culture, how our culture has suffered because of the heavily one-sided patriarchial control of it, and most importantly, their desire to have a larger role in shaping it.
For those who are interested, Dr Leoanard Sax wrote a book on this topic called” Boys Adrift”….it is available at the libraries here on the left coast…not sure elsewhere, he has also written several other gender related books on both boys and girls
“I do feel strongly that as women, we are complicit in this — in how we insist upon taking care of men in ways we would not do with women.”
Women spend so much time wiping men’s butts that when a woman needs help, we react like, “I’ve spent my whole life waiting on someone else hand and foot, I’ll be DAMNED if I’m doing it for another one of my own kind!” Like you said, the churn continues.
“Men are not responsible for creating this society. They were born into it, just like we are.”
I … no longer buy this excuse. We can all choose to change it. Culture changes when enough people get sick of what it is. Worldwide literacy rates skyrocket, clean water is taken as a given, slavery ends … things change when people actively choose to change them and open their eyes. Staying in denial is not a passive thing that one is simply born into — denial takes energy and real effort.
“I … no longer buy this excuse.”
This is not an excuse. This is a basic fact.
“Culture changes when enough people get sick of what it is.”
Yes, culture is the problem. Therefore, we must change the culture. And how is this denial?
And also, Janis, even though I blame culture instead of men for the sexism across our nation, how have I been passive in combating sexism?
http://thenewagenda.net/2010/0.....nst-women/
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http://thenewagenda.net/2010/0.....rnography/
http://thenewagenda.net/2010/0.....f-history/
http://thenewagenda.net/2010/0.....ommercial/
http://thenewagenda.net/2010/0.....ens-issue/
Karen,
Women have been trying to change culture for eons. We’re running out of time in achieving gender equaility because women don’t have the requisite power and mutual respect from men in making these changes. Govenrments around the world, ruled by men, are going bankrupt, wars, social strife, joblessness, and the men in power keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
It appears the men are happy with the status quo, where they maintain almost all power and are held to a different standard (a lower one) in society than women, please tell me how are we going to change the culture under these conditions? Be like the Trojan women did to stop war, they simply stopped having sex?!
“So what is in our culture that is prompting more women to strive for higher education and discouraging men?” In my house the fact that my son could make $20. an hour since age 17 working intermittently for a landscaper as a semi skilled hole digger and tree jockey, often for 12 hour shifts, has definitely taken the fire for college education out of him. He finished but he never had a passion. My daughter has worked as a $10. an hour swim teacher and lifeguard for no more than 4 hours a day and she has a passion to get her engineering degree so she can have adequate money and better working conditions. And don’t discount that she spends time putting on sunscreen daily because she doesn’t want to get wrinkled by the sun and he doesn’t give a rats ass if he gets wrinkled now or in the future. This is also a cultural difference in expectations between men and women.
Our culture doesn’t serve us well and one of the largest components of culture is media. Women do not have a true voice in media. The old men who run the corporations which run media have been very poor stewards. Corporate media needs to be destroyed and a new system needs to be nurtured to take it’s place.
Bruce: Thanks for the book reference I will check it out.
Karen: I think you article was successful in starting a flood of comments. Many people would consider it the most successful article they have seen for that reason.
Kathleen said “Women have been trying to change culture for eons.”
This has been a fascinating conversation here! I have honestly been thinking about it since it started, trying to figure some things out. Kathleen, you have a point… and yet I am starting to think women are almost as complicit on some levels.
Women have changed culture for sure. We are not living the same lives we did 100 years ago and we are doing far better. But why do we not have total parity now?
I’m wondering if mothers on some level, have contributed to the power imbalance. Because they want what is best for their boys. And if a boy can enjoy the additional power that is granted to boys, are moms going to stand in the way of this? Are mothers not on some level going to enjoy this?
In the book “The Waves” by Virginia Woolf, there is a character who is the perfect, nurturing mother. So nurturing, so beautiful, so close to nature with her children. But she dreams of her sons growing up to have top military positions in colonial India. She dreams of and wants them to conquer.
Henrietta,
You make excellent points about mothers and their sons. The thing is when it comes to son, the boy has the benefit of BOTH parents having big dreams for him and giving him their total attention and support in helping him succeed. There’s an imbalance from the beginning in what sons get from both parents, as opposed to daughters. Even when there are only daughters in the family, that doesn’t guarantee that the father will support them in the same way he would a son and vice versa. I’ve always felt a twinge of sadness whenever you see some show where the mother just delivered her child and the father’s reaction is almost always greater when it’s a son, than when it’s a daughter.
I agree mothers do enable young men to grow up feeling entitled and free from the demands they make on their daughters. The difficulty is that our culture has conditioned mothers to “automatically” expect sons to grow up to be in high power, high paying positions and given immediately and this feeling is doubled in the father. To make matters more complicated and difficult for change, is that daughters often have conflicting viewes from both parents and it switches between parents as to what those expections are and how much support they get for aspirations that they have for themselves, especially if it conflicts with one or both of the parents.
Therefore, I can’t put the entire blame on the mother, since a father’s participation or lack thereof in the parenting also influences how the son views the world, as well as the daughter.
It starts at birth and this conditioning influences us for the rest of our lives, if we let it. I suggest that the women who have posted here today are simply saying the only way to stop this conditioning from slowing down/stopping change is for us to stop enabling it in such a way in order to appease the men. That change can only come when women can say without reservation or fear of how the men will react that, “we will not be satisfied until our daughters are valued and supported by both parents with the same passion and commitment as we support our sons in anything they choose to do.” When that happens, I believe we will finally see the change we’ve been hoping for.
Kathleen, we’re also fighting other women, which is the core of a lot of what I’ve been saying. Women will make the choice to remain in a sexist culture if they get the satisfaction of seeing “that other bitch” in the shitpile up to her neck, too. We have to come clean and admit this as women: not only do we hang other women out to dry when they need our help, as so many commenters have said, but we also enjoy watching other women “git whuts cummin to em.” ALL OF IT must stop.
So in some ways, we haven’t REALLY been trying to change culture quite as hard as we could, unpleasant as it is to say. We’ve been trying to change “our” culture, but happy to watch those other bitches wallow in the mud of theirs. We haven’t yet made the connection that “our” culture (in the us-vs-them definition) will never improve until ALL women’s cultures improve. It’s like smallpox; you either wipe it out everywhere, or the virus will continue to live on in the unvaccinated population and end up coming around to get you eventually.
Janis,
I hear what you’re saying but not ALL women want to see “that other bitch” fail, although far too many fall into that trap and usually do when the guy their with feels that way.
What we have to take into consideration is that women still are not allowed to speak as freely and openly and honestly about what they think or feel about things without the danger of being “labeled” by those who wish to shut them up. Men don’t have this problem to deal with anywhere near to the same extent as women still do. Despite all of the advances made, that gives us hope that we are moving in the right direction, we see an extraordinary woman who has proven herself to be imminently more qualified than her male counterparts, and we witness the patriarchy’s circling of the wagons to make certain “the bitch” doesn’t win the last vestage of the exclusive male club — THE PRESIDENCY. Instead, we see that a male with no substantive record or evidence of taking a stand on anything that would require political courage get surrounded by the patriarchy protecting him, enabling him and literally dragging him across the finish line, with cheating and corruption evidenced everywhere to get him there.
It’s hard to “get in their face” when you have very little power to counter the attacks by the patriarchy that is sure to come. Women are having to deal with so many obstacles — physically, emotionally, legally, and practically — that they unfortunately make the mistake of believing that we will get further with the men if we play by their rules. After all, they have all the power and women are taught not to unite together for a cause for themselves and each other. That’s taught right out of our daughters.
We need a leader like Dr. King was to the AA community. However, even that will be more difficult that it was even for Dr. King, because he is a man, and he had the support of both the male and female AA’s.
We’re fighting against thousands of years of conditioning so powerful that it’s engrained to the point that not only men, but women, don’t see it. And the irony is that you can’t fix a problem if you don’t see it!
women will always be oppressed by men. To the extent that men want to actually live a life resembling a human life, is the determiner of the extent that women will be oppressed. Women did the first educating, of themselves, of their children. No, men aren’t physically capable of the things women are, except brute and brute is required for absolutely nothing except fighting, and their superiority in brute only comes about through 6000 years of their genome not changing. That needs to be understood. Women may pursue education because they need additional qualifications to be taken serious as a man, and even then it’s not a given. Education also gives a lifestyle and a job possibility. But men as a result of some kind of prgramming, do not value women. They were created to make women’s lives miserable. God made men to rape women. That’s not a rant. It’s a fact.
Kathleen said: “We’re fighting against thousands of years of conditioning so powerful that it’s engrained to the point that not only men, but women, don’t see it. And the irony is that you can’t fix a problem if you don’t see it!”
Yes! This is why the culture of sexism keeps sticking. It’s everywhere and it’s been everywhere for a very long time, seducing boys and girls, men and women alike. So I think it is important to have some level of empathy for those who have a hard time seeing it. This is the toughest battle.
Kiuku said: “God made men to rape women.” Well, not sure if I believe in God but most women are biologically sexually attracted to men. So we will always be tied to men in a way that is not just about domination but also as a union.
Men were sure designed stronger and more aggressive and I’m sure this meant back in the day that most thought it okay to rape. But that is a pre-civility mentality. Back in the day it was also okay to beat children. Civilization changes us. We are not at the mercy of our animal urges, or at least we do not have to be. We do not have to beat children. We do not have to rape women. We can control ourselves.
Kiuku, there are also societies where rape is almost unheard of. Small matriarchal societies in China, New Guinea and India. Civilizing culture can change things.
But… if we take that extreme attitude, “God made men to rape women.” we will simply end up alienating a lot of people who will close their minds to whatever else is said next. We must think of PR peoples! Calling all men rapists is not going to encourage enough unity to get the job done!
“Calling all men rapists is not going to encourage enough unity to get the job done!”
And thinking of their feelings first and foremost before we say anything hasn’t done us any good, either … The current mainstream feminism that puts keeping liberal men content and unruffled over supporting women is what’s wrong. The only solution is for US — WOMEN — to put women first. Who cares what men do? We outnumber them anyway. We need to FORGET ABOUT them and put each other first.
Janis,
Calling all men rapist first and foremost is not accurate.
Second, when I make a plea for unity I am talking about women primarily as women certainly must be the majority of this movement. If we are to take an extremist tone and call all men rapist we will repel many women who may be attracted to a pro-women movement otherwise.
And yes, certainly this sort of tone will repel men as well and I do find that to be significant, too. Just to clarify, I am not thinking of a rapist’s feeling “first and foremost”… I am thinking of those men who have pro-women sentiments and those women who have good fathers or husbands or brothers or friends and will be horrified by such sweeping generalizations.
Thw whole problem with this “Men are _____” and “Women are ______” stuff is that it’s essentialist, and thus fundamentally dehumanizing. Evolution has brought the sexes through a fairly horrific journey of male sexual force and inequality. But the whole point of being HUMANS, of being people who live in an evolving culture, is that we are no longer trapped by our biology. Women can work away from their children. Women can refuse sexual advances (excepting the appallingly common instances of sexual violence). Humans as a species can Choose to value justice and equality and change their culture to reflect that. It’s a slow process, but it’s a hell of a lot faster than waiting for natural selection to reverse sexual dimorphism. Humans now evolve predominantly on a Cultural, rather than Physical, level.
Of course, the problem then becomes How do we get Humans as a Species to Choose to evolve towards equality. I think we just work towards memetic critical mass. We’ve done it before. In fact each major victory of feminism was a result of this fight towards making our ideas publicly accepted. But in order to get our ideas through to people, we have to address them as individuals rather than as through they were a homogeneous group. Then, once they feel a human connection we can start tying them to the larger group so they understand the greater issue of inequality. But you have to start from self-interest, IMHO. And that goes for both women and men.
One may be able to win a military battle on the basis of bigger numbers, but in a cultural battle the way to win is by having appealing ideas. And “all men are rapists” is not an appealing idea. Sticking up for women is. Putting women first is. But alienating our allies is a bad idea, and yes, a lot of men are (or have the potential to be) feminist allies.
I’m with Henrietta on this one.
“But alienating our allies is a bad idea, and yes, a lot of men are (or have the potential to be) feminist allies.”
I’ve just heard this too many times to think there’s any there there. This phrase is the start of a long, slow slide downhill to pillow-fluffing. I’m not interested (believe it or not) in antagonizing them gratuitously, but I am not going to softpedal anything or keep my mouth shut because the truth would hurt their feelings.
Meanwhile, it’s just a matter of supporting women, all women. Like I said, I don’t care it we’re talking about running for the president of the Sierra Club or the John Birch Society, whether it’s president of the NAACP or the goddamned Klan. I want a woman. Worrying about how men will perceive us is the last thing we should be caring about. They are not going to be our allies, and if we are one another’s allies, it won’t matter whether they are or not. If we stick by one another we’ve got it in the bag anyhow, so who cares what they think?
Stop worrying about What Men Will Think.
“Worrying about how men will perceive us is the last thing we should be caring about. They are not going to be our allies, and if we are one another’s allies, it won’t matter whether they are or not. If we stick by one another we’ve got it in the bag anyhow, so who cares what they think?
Stop worrying about What Men Will Think.”
It’s just not true and you are painting a desire for unity as submissiveness. You say they are never going to be our allies while clearly some men are. And then you say that if women band together we have nothing to worry about. But 90 percent of your comments are along the lines of how women stab each other in the back and do not support each other. There are too many women who do indeed do just that – but then again there are enough women in this organization alone who band together to get things done.
Unity, unity, unity.
If a man understands the horrors of DV and marches against it, I will walk with him. If a woman understands the importance of voting for other women, I will stand in line at the voting booth with her. We are not all going to get all of it all of the time but we can work together on the things that we do “get”.
Janis,
I agree with your second paragraph (or most of it anyway). I also don’t think we should be watering down our principles to make sure that we don’t intimidate men. But it is NOT a feminist principle to state that all men are rapists. To say that men collectively have been responsible for the oppression of women? Sure.
But here’s what you know as well as I do. Not every man rapes. As such, EVERY man has the option Not to rape. If you reduce rape down to that thing that men do because they’re men, you are fundamentally reducing All Humans to being nothing more than their biology, which is contrary to the goals of feminism. You’re also letting every disgusting thing in our culture which encourages rape off the hook. It’s a Weak Argument and it undermines feminism.
And unless you indulge in some separatist fantasy, it will ALWAYS matter whether or not men are our allies. First of all, because men who are not our allies are our oppressors, and I’d much rather have an ally. But also because widespread social change can happen without majority support, but it cannot happen without majority support OR support from people in positions of power. And as a feminist, I’m sure you know that women are at a disadvantage in that realm. I’m sure you also know that plenty of women are not currently on board with feminism. We don’t have the fabled majority. We may Never have that majority if we only recruit women.
Finally, when I argue for male allies, I’m not arguing to include men for the sake of including men. I’m arguing that a small percentage of men might actually share our ideals, and work with us to achieve our goals.
Karen, back to your article on women’s surge to power. all the stats about girls graduating in higher numbers, studying harder, seriously preparing for careers. sound too good to be true. where are the data that all these hard earned head starts have brought women to crack glass ceilings? some have, a lot with similar preparation have not. and I think the tide is turning. the early sexualization of girls will have effects on their development of their talents. the intrusion of popular music with women hating lyrics.. this will have consequences. I fear for the destruction of the next generation of girls. if they don’t have children or abortions when they get out of high school most will have their boyfriends, who just as in the old days will be smarter, have the better career and more support for his career. if top priority is sex, love peace and a boyfriend in female early teen years, men will not have to worry for their livelyhoods.
And unless you indulge in some separatist fantasy, it will ALWAYS matter whether or not men are our allies.
We need to have some healthy mistrust of men. Not every man is a rapist, but too many are. Not every man is our enemy, but too many are. I think men (collectively) were able to oppress women (collectively) because women trusted men and depended on them, allowing men to take advantage of that trust and dependence to oppress women. When women learn to trust other women more than they trust men, then we’ll begin to see progress for women. This is not to say that (some) men cannot be allies. But they have to prove themselves first, and that burden of proof should be much higher for men than for other women because men have a natural alignment of interests against women (i.e. all men have an interest in making sexual access to women and their reproductive labor as easy as possible, even if it involves using violence and oppression.) Women do not have any natural alignment of interests against other women. Whenever women act against the interests of other women, it is because of the patriarchal social structure and conditioning, not because of natural interests.
This seems more like a hate fest than anything else, but I suppose it is good to vent.
FYI, men have not been your enemy. In fact, many men, myself included, have supported women and equality since the sixties. But you know what, no good deed goes unpunished, as many posters here have made very apparent.
To say that men are oppressing women is totally wrong. It’s reminiscent of black people who hated whites because they were slaves, when in fact, there is no-one who lives today that has been a slave, just as there are very few men alive today that think women are inferior. It’s all in your head. You’re living in the past.
As for men being more violent than women, you better look again. I’ve spent considerable time researching this and it’s more even than I could have ever imagined. Even when considering domestic violence, the numbers coming in are showing that women are more aggressive. The only real difference is that when a woman hits a man there isn’t much damage, but when a man hits a woman she gets seriously hurt.
I don’t know what world you folks live in, but this contest between men and women is ludicrous. In order for this world to exist it will take everyone, regardless of sex, race, or any other difference, working together to survive.
Men are not shaking in their boots over womens success as some women imply.
Frankly, what I hate about this more than anything are the sexist that see this as a contest. Sexism is wrong and we have been fighting against it for years and some of these fools want to keep it going. How stupid can society get?
If some of you folks need a goal, then find a cure for all diseases, of how to prevent world starvation, or over population, or invent new forms of energy. Fighting over which sex have the most jobs is, for lack of a better word, stupid.
I’m going back to Hanna’s article and continue posting there…
One more thing – Some people wrote very intelligent posts here. My criticism is not interned toward them, only toward the sexist.
To comment on Karen’s contribution to Hanna’s article…
“However, there is a huge difference between feeling oppressed and being oppressed. “
This is so true. This concept runs rampant throughout society. All my life I’ve listened to men, women, and blacks complain that they’ve been passed over for jobs or promotions because of sex or race, when, from my vantage point, it was more of an issue with them thinking they were better than they were. There is many times a huge difference between how we perceive ourselves and how others perceive us.
“The problem with males – and females — is our culture.”
Again I am in full agreement with Karen. All it takes to understand this is to look at different cultures around the world or look back at history to see that people behave according to the culture they are born in. Cultures can change and that is what is happening to us today.
“So what is in our culture that is prompting more women to strive for higher education and discouraging men? “
Karen attributes this to “Instead of praising intelligence, we glorify violence in men. “ . Again I agree, to a point. When I was young. during the early space race days, schools would have science fairs and math contests. Somehow, that has morphed into sports for the boys and spelling bees for the girls. This is a cultural change.
As for violence, try this experiment. Go to a video store and remove (in your mind) all movies that contain violence, sex, emotional conflict, or cursing and then count how many movies remain.
“Ultimately, the glorifying of violence and the deriding of intelligence in males has resulted in more men declining to pursue higher education. “
Karen and I diverge at this point. In the earlier part of the last century, men and women were born into a culture where men were expected to provide the income for their family and women married because it was the only way for them to exist in a world where they couldn’t get jobs to support themselves. As Karen mentioned, this was the culture that people were born into and not a conscience effort of the people of that era to make it so.
During WWII things began to change. With most of the men off to war, women had to man the factories and they began to enjoy the benefits of making their own money. After the war, they kept their jobs because it allowed them to raise their standard of living and gave them a sense of freedom and choice. This is where the change began. People began increasing their material possessions and that meant that they needed more money. This also meant that a single bread winner was unable to support their standard of living, so the dual income family became a necessity. Of course, the capitalistic system abhors a vacuum and the cost of property, land, rent, etc. went up to match the income. This in turn made a two income family imperative.
Many jobs in the past were manufacturing jobs and that always guaranteed an income for most people. Factory workers began demanding more money and more benefits. Eventually, the business owners began sending these jobs overseas because of the cheaper labor. This changed our nation into a service based economy and that is where the change we see today began.
At the same time, technology began increasing at a geometric rate. Machines began replacing the need for muscle, thereby leveling the playing field between men and women. Many new jobs were created that never existed before and these jobs were available to both men and women.
Women no longer had to rely on marriage to survive and political changes that began in the mid part of the last century began removing the obstacles that prevented women from making it on their own. It also meant that women who choose to go it alone had no choice but to get an education to make a decent living. Freedom and choice is a wonderful thing, but it comes at a cost.
Men had always expected jobs to be available without an education. This changed with the decline in manufacturing jobs. However, men still had the choice of jobs that required physical stamina, such as construction. Women however, wanted jobs that were less physically strenuous, but these jobs required an education. So the trend to get a education was born.
Where is all this going to lead? We are creating more machines to reduce the need for physical labor. Eventually, everyone who wants a decent living will have to get an education, men and women alike. Once this is realized, balance will be restored.
Let me wrap this up by saying that people like Hanna who wrote, “The End of Men” is wrong in attributing this change to some mental aberration of the male mind or superiority of women’s mental makeup. That’s stupidity at it’s finest. I’m apologize for being so blatantly rude, but my tolerance for sexism is zero.
Steve, I hope you have noticed through the articles which are posted that The New Agenda is pro-woman but NOT anti-male. We praise men who understand us and are on our side. We condemn men who are opposed to feminism. Men and women live in this world together, so we have to learn to apppreciate and respect each other. I would like to hear more of what you have to say regarding other articles.
Yes, some of the posts are as you say, some are not. The ones that are not are the people I am targeting with my response. In case you missed one of them, ““I hate men and want them all to die.”” I hate bigots. I do realize that many men and women share my views on this and that what gives us hope.
There is also some male bashing going on here, but I get enough of that from the media. Perhaps male bashing has escaped notice by many women, but it is epic in proportion.
Men are accused of oppressing women, but that is far from the truth. Men are born into this society and have to live up to the rules and expectations set forth by our societies, just like the women. Karen, You were right about that. In fact, if you want to see it from a different perspective, throughout history men have provided for women, not necessarily out of choice, but because it was demanded of us by social rules. In the past men took on a huge responsibility when they married. As long as the man provided, women were able to live in this cozy little world, blissful of the realities of a mans life. Now that is changing and some women are mad. They see what they didn’t have, but are blind to what they did have. Nothing comes free and with this ability to stand on their own feet, women loose the comfort of the home that men provided and they loose the intimacy of growing up with their children. Still, people should have choices. That is only the right thing to do.
Karen, one last thing. I was going to pick other negative posts written prior to mine and comment on them, but what’s the point? These people are their own worse enemies and such egoists that they will never understand.
The bottom line is that all the people of the world, irregardless of any differences, should have equality and choice.
The concept of bigotry needs to be wiped out from existence.
Sorry, I completely blew over what you said, “The New Agenda is pro-woman but NOT anti-male.”
That statement is in itself sexist. It should be “pro-equality” for everyone. This should also apply to racist interest groups too.
I do understand why these groups exist and I understand that you probably don’t see it as I do, but any group that supports people according to their sex organs is sexist. It a simple concept.
This doesn’t make supporters of these groups bad people. Their intent might be good, but it is at the expense of people outside their group. Besides, it keeps sexism going strong. I don’t expect this to stop anytime soon. The mens groups are starting to grow now in retaliation and then there’s going to be arguments and fights and legal actions… You would think that people would grow up today and bypass all the nonsense.
We live in a crazy world, don’t you think?
Steve in your fairy world women are treated not less or more fairly than men? so you stand up for the good in mankind. nice.
so what you do when the guys joke about female outfits, bodyparts, any women. you tell them this is not the right kind of conduct? do you recognize this as sexist, or is the term sexist bad for you because it says something bad about part of the male mankind?
there are specific crimes only men can commit. so the more these crimes are conducted the more manbashing you are hearing. we are at a boiling point, where many many women have enough and recognize how phony most men are when they talk that they are pro-women. they are not. some even think the concept of being pro- women is sexist.
“That statement is in itself sexist. It should be “pro-equality” for everyone.”
Steve, The New Agenda IS an organization dedicated to women of all areas of life. There is nothing wrong with having a few, single and clear goals in an organization such as this. The reason women’s rights have not advanced in the past few decades is because all the other organizations have become distracted with other issues.
There is nothing wrong with an organization dedicated solely to advancing blacks or to advancing homosexuals, yet you expect a women’s organization to focus on issues _other_ than advancing women?
What crimes can only men commit? I can’t think of any and don’t say rape, because women do it too. Women are not these cute little angels that some think they are. They murder their children, their husbands, their coworkers and complete strangers. The fact is that “women are just like men” and they are getting more violent! That’s reality.
Men and women both tell sexist jokes. Who gives a rip? You need to lighten up! There’s a difference between poking fun at each other and being belligerent.
About being pro-women… You can be pro-woman but if you are not pro-man at the same time you are being sexist. How simple can I make this so you understand?
You see folks, this is exactly what i’m taking about. People like Anna who harbors all this anger toward men, men she doesn’t even know. Apparently she had a bad experience with a man and now she want to blame all men. I’ve had bad experiences with women, but I certainly don’t blame that on all women.
Ahhh…, why do I waste my words? Anna, go ahead, keep your hate alive, teach your children to hate half of the world, I’m sure that will make life better for everyone.
Karen,
I suppose that the best way to say this is that support groups should exist for all people that need it, irregardless of sex race or nationality.
Back in the early years of women lib, woman fought to close down all male clubs. They called these clubs sexist. Now years later, we have groups that only support women. How is that any different from the men only clubs?
Tell me, don’t you think that men could benefit from support groups? We are going through social changes that are effect both sexes. It’s about people learning to adapt to in our changing world and people are comprised of both sexes.
Karen, I know you mean well, and only see the good that these support groups provide. It’s not what these groups are doing, it’s what they are not doing that concerns me. Nothing I say can bring you around to my way of thinking. The only way that could happen is if you were in a mans shoe.
Sadly these groups also draw the men haters. These haters give women groups a bad name.
If I didn’t say it before, you main post was enjoyable and very down to earth.
Hanna Rosin’s “The End Of Men” is really about the demise of the American economy in which millions of women and men will suffer together in the coming years, but nobody’s listening. Its much easier to entertain ourselves deciding which gender is on top (however the question is meaningless). Since “The End Of Men” was published I’ve seen numerous comments from women on several different websites that border on hatred or outright gloating over the misery of fellow human beings (in this case men). Some women,(thank God not all), seem to derive satisfaction from seeing men suffer. It seems the magic between the sexes is disappearing in a cloud of sexual politics. How Sad!
Ed – I agree with you. I found the article disturbing for two reasons. First, I think it is dangerous to overstate women’s lackluster progress – can make us complacent. Second, I concur that men and boys are not the enemy but part of the solution. I worry about my son making his way in this world and if we are raising a generation of lost boys. This is hardly a gloat, but the worry for me as a mother.
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