Sexism Stoplight: The Sexy Saleswoman
December 12, 2009
by Contributor
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Dear TNA,
I work in an office that is frequently visited by salespeople who don’t work for my company but represent the various construction industry related product lines we sell to our customers. It is an almost all male environment and there is only one saleswoman who regularly visits. I dread the days “Diane” might show up because she is very attractive and I know I will have to listen to various guys commenting on her looks, clothes, body etc after she leaves. These comments range from just annoying to making me very uncomfortable.
This weeks conversation after “Diane” left was an hour long debate on whether she was wearing any underwear, and if so what kind!
The other problem is that she encourages it. “Diane” wears clothes that are on the verge of unprofessional, flirts shamelessly, and frequently talks about going out partying and waking up “who knows where.” I know that she does this because she feels it helps her make more money and get more orders from the men, but I work hard to keep an office vibe of professional boundaries and she blows it to hell every time she shows up. Other than the days she visits, I like my job and co-workers, and I make really good money here. What do I do?
Thanks,
Mrs. Not Just Jealous
Suggestions on how to address this situation…
Dear Mrs. Not Just Jealous,
There are two different questions to address in your situation. Should you, and if so how, bring your issues up with “Diane” herself? How can you address your discomfort with some of the men’s comments about “Diane”? We’ll turn this over to our members and see if we can get you some advice.
What say you? What should Mrs. Not Just Jealous do?
I wish I had some good advice, but I see that this is a very tricky situation. Diane could accuse her of being jealous; this accusation would make everything worse, imo.
Don’t bother talking to Diane. She has found her place in the Patriarchy and she is happy with the fact that she has a place where she belongs. You are right that if you openly say she dresses and acts unprofessional they will just write you off and call you jealous. So talk only to the most sympathetic person above you in the company’s management and tell them you feel creepy about the talk during and especially after Diane leaves and ask if there is some task you can excuse yourself to do, somewhere else, on the days she shows up. You can’t control others behavior so it is a waste of your time to try. Work on removing yourself from the situation.
This is a tough situation. If your boss (or someone higher up) doesn’t participate in these discussions, I think I would mention that it makes you feel uncomfortable. It seems to me this is a clear-cut case of sexual harassment, even though it’s not about you. It doesn’t seem like that’s professional talk appropriate to a work environment, regardless of who it’s directed at! I wouldn’t ask to be removed unless it seems like that’s the only option, as you shouldn’t have to put up with talk that makes you uncomfortable, and this really is a problem management should address. If you feel like your boss wouldn’t be sympathetic, perhaps there is someone in HR you could talk to? I agree that talking to Diane, unless you have a close relationship with her, isn’t likely to do much good.
Her behavior you can’t change and don’t have grounds for changing if it’s not impacting you negatively. In some offices, this sort of thing would cause the men to treat ALL women around like that, but if you like the place and your co-workers otherwise and they don’t talk smack about all women using the excuse that that one woman has given them a sort of tacit approval (a bullshit excuse some men would cop to: “Whaddaya mean, I can’t grab your ass! She likes it when I grab HERS!”), there isn’t much for you to do.
You do have it within your rights when she’s not there to let the men know that that sort of talk about women’s underwear — no matter whether the wearer doesn’t mind or not — could be “misinterpreted” as creating a hostile workplace for all women. *evil smile* Of course you and I know it isn’t a misinterpretation AT ALL, but it’ll get them to shut up.
I can guarantee you though, that it’s going to bite her on the ass harder eventually. Women like that always think they can game the system — and they are always proven wrong, hard.
Hmph. This might be worth an article from me, much as I hate to admit it.
Don’t forget — Diane isn’t the problem, although she’s stoking it. The problem is the men’s behavior. Their talk has to stop. Don’t make accusations about her, and don’t talk about her clothes or anything else. Tell them, “Your conversation could be construed as creating a hostile work environment.” If they try to turn it around to Diane and paint you as jealous, just say, “I don’t care about her. She’s not the problem. Your conversation is what could be construed as creating a hostile work environment.”
If they want to ogle her, that’s all well and good — but they cannot use that as an excuse to create a poor work environment.
Again, stay on target: Diane’s skirts aren’t the problem. Their words are. If they like looking at her, they can do it with their lips zipped.
Good advice from all but here is some business advice it took me years to learn. It may not be right but I find it is true. In man think world there are no problems until someone talks about a situation and then the person who talks created the problem, as far as they’re concerned. So Tiger Woods really had every thing under control and going great, in their minds, until someone (probably a woman)started talking about him having a problem and then at that point in time that woman created the whole mess. Just watch out for that way of thinking because when they start with it they are looking for someone to blame.
Gee Bes, I guess she should do nothing at all, and TNA should shut down because attempting to fix the problem of sexism in this culture will just make things worse.
Well..without any details it’s hard to tell. Diane might just have the misguided perception from media that that is what women wear. I would talk to her though and tell her the nasty things the men say about her. One thing in business is for sure, whether a woman is wearing a suit or pants is that the men always always always check your ass to see if and what kind of underwear you are wearing. So it’s a catch 22. If you wear tight you know sheer fitted type underwear, or thong, so they can’t see the line, they’ll talk about how you don’t wear any and you are a slutty threat, too sexy to work around them, and then if you do wear underwear with the line (like I do) they’ll know what kind you wear.
The comments by the men are unprofessional and should be brought up to supervisory. The fact that there are so few saleswomen just show what kind of misogynist organization it is, and no wonder all they have is Diane.
Janis, having a bad day? How could you possibly take that away from what I said? Actually your last post reminds me of something my first husband would say. He would state some outrageous BS and then state that it was my opinion. Mrs. Not Jealous needs to take care of herself first and foremost. No one person can fix an entire culture her goal should be to improve her work environment. If this is a huge corporation then they will have a HR department, they try to work discretely but everyone always knows whats going on and why. If it is a small business then there will be few options for her to talk to. Sure she can file a discrimination complaint but do not be naive enough to think there will be no blow back from doing that even though it is “right”. I believe she should work through the system that is in place to increase her own power and then stomp on the underwear discussion offenders sometime down the road. Do not let a bunch of illiterate hosers consume energy that should be directed toward your own advancement. The world is full of stupid people male and female, don’t get involved with them, step over them or step on them.
Bes it probably has to do with the general theme of most of your prior advice posts, within which these ones fall in line. I look at the first one, and then your second one after Janis, instinctively redirects the attention away from Diane. I took it away from what you said too. I’m curious if you can back up your business advice with your highest position in business that you attained
(Janis instinctively redirects the attention away from Diane as the problem)
I don’t work at the highest position I have attained now. I am a research Technologist by title, that is a lab tech that works in medical research as opposed to a clinical lab. In a clinical lab the tests are standardized and streamlined and mostly automated, in a research lab most procedures are rag tag and evolving. At my highest level I was a Research Technologist Supervisor. I prefer playing in the lab to dealing with regulations and people all day.
There is a clear divide between my advice and the advice of others. That is OK, everyone does not need to agree. Some people think women will get ahead by pointing out every problem they see in every clearly sexist system. That is pretty much what feminists have done for years and it is a running against the wind approach. IMO women have gone backwards while this approach has been used, and some women have gone native and just looked for their protected place in the patriarchy (NOW). Our culture is what it is. We need to stop trying to change the patriarchal institutions and start building our own. For instance why have feminists not started a micro loan program? I absolutely agree Corporate media is sexist why have feminists not started their own media instead of criticizing and trying to change old media? Why have they not set up a fun and compelling web destination for young girls and women because we know the corporate ones are crap? They are so busy trying to change what is firmly entrenched they have no energy left over for their own creativity. Mrs Not Jealous can not change the guys she works with, it is a waste of her time to try it will suck her dry. You can not control other people. So control your own environment, In my case I would go to my most approachable supervisor and say “I am not going to sit through another discussion of Diane’s lingerie, I have work to do, so next time I see her come in I will be up on 5th floor in the microscope room counting slides if anyone wants me”. End of discussion. I don’t know what the office equivalent is of that as I have never worked in an office only a lab but I am sure there is one. When you are at work you should be thinking about being effective not about making sure what other people do is “right” and I get the impression Mrs. Not J is young, it is irresponsible to not warn her that sexual harassment reporting causes blow back on the person who reports. Yes I would support her if she still wants to report, but she needs to know it does NOT solve problems it just leads you to deal with different problems.
Bes, you are absolutely incorrect to say unequivocally that reporting sexual harrassment in the workplace does not solve problems. Do you really believe that men should just get away with it?! I’ve worked in offices where woman reported sexual harrassment and it worked. In at least one case, the guy was fired. As for leaving the area when the men start trash talking, that is not an option in a small office and usually not even an option in any size office. I’ve worked in different size offices and it’s pretty hard to do your job unless you’re at your own desk/computer etc. Hiding from the situation is ridiculous and not feasible. Woman have the right to speak up if they feel uncomfortable. I’m really sorry you have a problem with that.
We had a secretary where I worked who exclusively wore tight dresses from Vicoria’s Secret. She was a va-va voom type of bombshell and them men ogled her constantly. We had stairways that were grated stairs so the men would gather under the stairs so they could look up her dress. It was appauling. The way I dealt with it was to embarrass the men. I would catch them in the act of ogling and ask, “how would you explain this behavior to your grandaughter/daughter/wife/mother?” Would you like other men treating the women in your life this way? I guilted them into stopping the behavior. I didn’t want to work with neanderthals and told them so.
Another technique that was highly successful was the “I always thought that this type of behavior was beneath you?” Another guilt technique that caused the men to rethink their behavior.
I think Bes may be right based on how much of the business world I’ve seen operates. The difference of opinion may be practical advice based on how things are, and advice based on how we wish things were and how they should be. What Mrs. Not Just Jealous has to decide is the same thing many of us have experienced. Can we risk sticking our neck out and worry about the blow back landing on us instead of the offenders? If she does make a report to HR, assuming there is one, will the company back her or see her as a trouble maker? Although I wish it weren’t so, I do think it is practical to evaluate how making a complaint could affect your job and career. I have seen both outcomes. I’ve also learned that this kind of problem gets harder to solve the longer it goes on. If you put a stop to it the very first time with a sarcastic/humor or a shaming approach like Optixmom suggested, often that is enough. I’m not saying she shouldn’t make a complaint or doesn’t have the right to, but she might try other techniques first.
By all means, speak up, do something, don’t run away and hide as Bes would have you do. We teach people how to treat us. Sexist behavior in the workplace will not change if you do nothing about it.
Yes, there are risks to this. But there are also ways to do it that expose your own neck as little as possible.
No, not in all circumstances. Some companies are so toxic that there is nothing to do but keep your head down and wait it out until you can get another job.
But if the original questioner likes the workplace and her colleagues otherwise, that suggests to me that she might be able to go to her boss or HR and say something impersonal like, “I’m concerned that their conversation could be interpreted as creating a hostile work environment or something.”
And again, if she decides to go this route, she must keep the focus on that. Diane isn’t the problem. Their conversation is — if they want to check out a good-looking woman, that’s as may be, but they have to keep their lips buttoned while they do it. That’s the focus. Under no circumstances is Diane’s clothing or behavior to be mentioned if the original questioner wants it to be taken seriously. She may even want to say, “If they like to look at her, that’s fine, but they need to watch their words.”
The questioner will need to judge for herself whether her workplace is open to that; it sounds as if it may be if she likes her coworkers otherwise. But the focus must at all times be on their conversation and not on Diane’s clothes.
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